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Atheist and Agnostic Pro-Life League's Guestbook
Archive: Volume 2 (6 Mar 1999 - 26 May 1999)

This page was last modified on 30 April 2002.

NOTE WELL: The entries in this guestbook reflect only the views of the individual signatories. As we welcome any comments our visitors may wish to offer, we must insist that you refrain from any activity that could be considered harassment of our guests. That being said, we encourage you to make your own entry.

[Stan] - 05/26/99 23:21:31
My Email: standard42@hotmail.com
How did you find us?: Searched on in
Do you like our site?: Yes.
Will you visit again?: Yes.
Will you recommend site to others?: Yes.
Do you think we're evil?: No.

When I last signed your guestbook, I explained why I do not think you are evil:

"I do not think you are evil. After all, any unfortunate loss of potential life is nothing compared to the slaughter of billions that Jesus promised he'd do (Matt 13:40-43). So, no, it's not you who are evil."

You, the webmaster, responded by attacking me when I was merely answering the question you asked. You said:

"...there is no comparison between this "unfortunate loss" of truly innocent human life and the Christian wish fulfillment of the ultimate defeat of sin and evil. Your misuse of the contents of a book that you obviously do not believe in to support the genocide of abortion is disingenuous and perhaps even evil. --Matt Wallace, Founder/Webm"

You certainly do not sound like an agnostic or an atheist, Matt. Your assertion that I am misusing the bible sounds as though it comes from someone who truly believes that he knows what the "true" meaning of the Bible is. But, I am not a Christian, and so I consider the Christians' plans to rid the world of those who do not bow to their god as genocidal. Remember, it was Jesus himself who was quoted as saying that he will deny unbelievers to his angels. Maybe you really are not a Christian, maybe you are just an agnostic who needs to read the bible more closely. Otherwise, you might know that. Granted, it is certainly one of the more unsavoury aspects of Christianity which they don't like to bring up, so maybe that's why you seemed so surprised.

You also fly off the handle and accuse me of supporting abortion. I did not state that I support abortion. Please deliberate longer before attacking people in the future. Thanks.


Webmaster's Response:
I've been an open, avowed atheist in the "Bible Belt" since spring 1974 when I was 13. If you doubt my atheism, please avail yourself of the following resources on my personal site, Matt Wallace's The Compleat Heretic, and on this site: Atheist portion of my Autobiography, "Could Clinton actually be a cannibal, too?", and responses to Guestbook entries by "Scully22", Melissa Tulin, and Steve Clark. Perhaps what's confusing you is that I'm not a stereotypical "God-hater," what I refer to as a "Fundamentalist Atheist." A Fundamentalist Atheist is one so filled with hatred, contempt, and resentment of religion in general and Christianity in particular that one has lost all rationality, honesty, and decency and has allowed oneself to be corrupted into the instrument of one's own destruction. I try to practice the same tolerance that I expect from others. I endeavor always to use dispassionate reason, and never some petty personal grievance, as the basis for any opposition.

As an atheist, I certainly don't believe that the Bible is "the Word of God," rather it is "the word of some men about their god." Even so, whether I believe what is written or not, the Bible says what it says. Being highly literate (SAT Verbal 720 (99th percentile)), I am more than capable of reading and comprehending the English language, including that of my New International Version. True to my Protestant heritage, I read and interpret the Bible for myself without recourse to "holy men" or "Biblical Errancy" "scholars."

Upon finding your post, I checked my NIV and found that you were citing a passage in which Jesus explained the metaphors in the parable of his return with an army of angels for the final battle with evil. The events surrounding this battle are detailed in Revelation; the good fundamentalist young'uns, or what I call the "Redneck Inquisition," used Revelation (666, Antichrist, Rapture, Armageddon, etc.) as their primary weapon against my atheism. Far from being a concealed Christian "genocidal" plot (as if the New Testament was a "Christian Mein Kampf"!), this "final battle" is a well-known impetus for believers "to spread the Word" to "save" unbelievers from the fate that awaits them when the "heavenly host" (not the believers) eradicate evil from the world, establish the Kingdom of God on the earth, and they all live happily ever after as in all fairy tales.

My first clue to your abortion position was your use of the "pro-choice"/pro-abortion expression "potential life" which is a slur against the preborn used to denigrate their very real lives. I found additional evidence on your "ExXian Links of Interest". Under "Just Plain-old Cool Stuff," you link to Zero Population Growth with the comment "Stop Over-breeding Now!"; ZPG "supports" "abortion services" as a means of controlling population growth and "endorses" Roe v. Wade (See "Abortion and Family Planning" in "Statement of Policy"). You also link to "What Does The Bible Say About Abortion?" (Nontract #7 from the Freedom From Religion Foundation, Inc.) which misuses and mischaracterizes the Bible to support abortion. My logical conclusion is that you are indeed "pro-choice"/pro-abortion.

As is plainly obvious, I did not "fly off the handle" and was most "deliberate" when I responded to your original post. Unlike you, I used the available resources to determine with whom I was dealing. You don't believe any more than I do that Jesus is going to come from the sky leading an army of avenging angels to slaughter billions of us godless heathens. You used what is at worst a revenge fantasy to minimize the all too real carnage of abortion. Your first post was nothing but mockery; your second post, with its feigned innocence and indignation, is nothing but mockery as well. Of course, as a "Biblical Errancy" "scholar," you make an avocation of mockery. Accordingly, my "attack" was most appropriate.

Finally, you are nothing but a disingenuous, perverse, nasty, evil, little troll. Do not sign this guestbook again; do not sign the guestbook of any web site I webmaster; do not send e-mail to any address associated with any web site I webmaster; do not submit any feedback forms on any web site I webmaster; in short, you will cease all communication with me immediately. If you fail to comply, I will report you for harassment to your ISP. Don't whine about not getting a chance to respond; all you're interested in is playing your silly little game, and I'm not playing.
--Matt Wallace, Founder/Webmaster

Brenda - 05/03/99 17:30:27
My URL: http://www.undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca/~bafine/prolife.html
My Email: bafine@uwaterloo.ca
Location (City, State, etc.): Waterloo, Canada
Do you think we're evil?: If so, certainly not because you're prolife atheists

My profound apologies for not recognizing this site as unbearably offensive in Carolyn's guestbook. Do be assured, however, that your site is, for lack of a better word, a godsend to the non-{Christian conservatives}...a pregnant woman who has forsaken God isn't about to listen to Biblical arguments as to why she shouldn't abort, nor is a rebellious teenager going to pay any mind to what Jesus thinks.

Webmaster's Response:
Apology accepted, though AAPL would be more accurately referred to as a "lack-of-godsend"! ::hehe:: But then I created AAPL both to provide a rational, scientific, nonreligious, nontheistic opposition to the current abortion regime and to close the void in this opposition all too often left open by "traditional" religious pro-life groups.
--Matt Wallace, Founder/Webmaster

Michael L. Pucci - 04/30/99 01:49:15
My URL: http://www.michaelpucci.org
My Email: Pooch@michaelpucci.org
Location (City, State, etc.): Chico, California
How did you find us?: Surfing
Do you like our site?: Somewhat
Will you visit again?: Perhaps
Will you recommend site to others?: Same as above
Do you think we're evil?: No, just missing faith.

Glad to see that you are pro-life. However, you are missing a critcal point here. The unborn are God's creations and do not deserve to have their brains sucked out and murdered by their mothers. I accept and strongly agree with many of your arguements but it's upsetting to see that you do not belive. But thanks, I guess for this site. I pray that you will trust Him one day. You are half way there already.

Lisa - 04/23/99 05:43:57
Location (City, State, etc.): Virginia
How did you find us?: link from Jen Roth's Leftout
Do you like our site?: yes, but you need MORE. like a Q&A. did you take stuff off?
Will you visit again?: probably. I've been here before
Will you recommend site to others?: yes. pro-choice atheist friend
Do you think we're evil?: no. Operation Rescue is evil.

As a devout Catholic and pro-lifer, I love to see the issue of abortion taken beyond religious arguments, because it adds so much more legitimacy to my claims. It is NOT merely a religious issue, and I am NOT merely trying to "impose my beliefs" on others. It is an issue of basic human rights. I appreciate that you can understand this. However, I don't understand why so many of you take "exception" in rape/incest cases. Most incest victims are FORCED into abortions in attempts to conceal the abuse. And rape victims describe the abortion procedure as a "second rape," just as violating and just as violent. It continues the cycle of violence. Do not presume to know what a woman would want or what is best for her. Talk to victims who have been through it.

Dean Fisher - 04/05/99 18:39:21
Location (City, State, etc.): Michigan
How did you find us?: Friend
Do you like our site?: It was OK
Will you visit again?: Maybe
Will you recommend site to others?: Yes
Do you think we're evil?: Definitely not!

Interesting. It's refreshing to see that someone is basing their objections on something other than the usual religious grounds. It's a bigger issue than just one religion vs. another religion or no religion. It is a fundamental issue over when we become human, choice is purely a side issue. I think the biggest mistake the anti-abortion movement made was to make it a religious issue, not an ethical/moral one. They gave the pro-abortion side a great weapon to use against them.

Webmaster's Response:
I concur, but then that's one of the reasons why I started AAPL.
--Matt Wallace, Founder/Webmaster

Jack Elwood - 03/29/99 15:37:40
My Email: elwood@immanuelbible.net
Location (City, State, etc.): Springfield,VA
How did you find us?: You found us
Do you like our site?: found it interesting
Will you visit again?: maybe
Will you recommend site to others?: no
Do you think we're evil?: no just misguided

Your position on being prolife is right but for the wrong reasons. You need to see that your arguments don't hold water. Your claims are moral in nature(innocent? says who? you?), and are at best relative(human beings - did you make the distinction?)but have no authority(man centered)Are you more pro life than anti God? You have some more thinking to do. Seek and you will find.

Webmaster's Response:
You need to understand that all moral codes, ethical systems, and legal structures are the products of human thinking which seek to rationalize and to direct human behavior; they are not the otherworldly pronouncements of some Big-Daddy-in-the-Sky speaking with a disembodied voice in the form of combusting shrubbery. All religion, philosophy, and science is a human construct which attempts to explain and to make sense of the Cosmos; this includes your "God" and your Christianity. No conflict exists between being opposed to both the life-denying horror of abortion and the readily apparent fantasy world of theism; AAPL is prima facie evidence of this. If you're having trouble comprehending this fact, perhaps "[y]ou have some more thinking to do."
--Matt Wallace, Founder/Webmaster

Pirate Pete - 03/28/99 21:31:45
My URL: http://www.ovnet.com/~voltz/prolife.htm
My Email: voltz@ovnet.com
Location (City, State, etc.): Martins Ferry, OH
How did you find us?: You emailed me
Do you like our site?: I respect your right to a different opinion
Will you visit again?: Hmmmmm......
Will you recommend site to others?: Hmmmmm......
Do you think we're evil?: No. Misguided, perhaps, but not evil.

Thank you for inviting me to visit your page. I am a Catholic and firm believer in God. I will not try to preach to you other than to say this--Search deeper. There is an Answer, you'll just need to search for Him a little harder.

Webmaster's Response:
But if we "found God," He would cease "working in and through [us]."
--Matt Wallace, Founder/Webmaster

Sue - 03/28/99 04:36:30
My Email: FREESUE@aol.com
How did you find us?: You found me
Do you like our site?: no opinion
Will you visit again?: no
Will you recommend site to others?: to pro choice athiests
Do you think we're evil?: no

As stated in your email to me, you found me through an Internet "keyword" search, tho I haven't any idea what keyword would give you my name. I'm not athiest and I'm as about as pro choice as they come. You see, I don't really care for people who wish to limit my right to make this decision for myself, based on my own conscience and belief system. I personally would never have an abortion, but, I also want to maintain my right to make that decision. I want no one, not you or government or law, making that decision for me. No one forces you to HAVE an abortion, like in China. You are free to make that decision. All I ask is that I be free to make the same decision.

Webmaster's Response:
Having surfed through over 1,000 unique hits, I can't possibly remember the specific page, but your e-mail address was on a page that came up on an AltaVista search using "+atheist +"pro-life"". I admit to being somewhat indiscriminate in collecting addresses, but I thought it to be the most efficient method. I collected addresses based on what I perceived to be some interest in the abortion debate, and I made no distinction between either one's position in this debate or one's religious views. Pro-life fundamentalist Christians who said nasty things about atheists, pro-choice atheists who claim that all pro-lifers are religious fanatics, and everything in between were equally likely to have been contacted. AAPL exists to provide a forum for open, committed atheists, agnostics, and other nontheists to affirm life by taking a principled stand against abortion. In doing so, we hope to demonstrate that abortion is not simply a "religious" issue and to dispel theistic misconceptions of nontheists.
--Matt Wallace, Founder/Webmaster

J. Booker - 03/26/99 01:37:55
My Email: fgummfan@hotmail.com
Location (City, State, etc.): El Cajon, CA 92021
How did you find us?: as a link to PLAGAL
Do you like our site?: I LOVE IT!!!!
Will you visit again?: Absolutely
Will you recommend site to others?: I would like to recommend you to a textbook who lists no pro-life websites but three pro-choice ones.
Do you think we're evil?: Nope.

It is so very refreshing to see a pro-life group which is not connected to a religious group. I do not believe in a mythical god. I do believe life is sacred. I never dreamed there could be a group that felt the same way! Thank goodness for the internet! Please send me more information. I only have web access at school, but have an e-mail address.

[Anonymous] - 03/20/99 18:51:33

I'm very, very glad that a site like this exists. However many of us would really like for you and your members to elaborate a bit more on the rationale behind your pro-life views. Lately I've encountered more than a few people, atheist and religious alike, who don't understand what reason there could be for a non-religious person to be pro-life, and perhaps if you explained what led you to your pro-life views you might encourage more atheists to be pro-life.

Webmaster's Response:
I completely agree. I haven't had, or perhaps made, the time to relate the story of my transition from "pro-choice" to pro-life. I encourage my fellow AAPL members to tell their own stories, but then I'm not exactly leading by example.
--Matt Wallace, Founder/Webmaster

Anna - 03/19/99 11:05:43
My URL: http://members.aol.com/AnnainCA
My Email: AnnainCA@aol.com
Location (City, State, etc.): Belmont, California
How did you find us?: I followed a link from the PLAGAL website.
Do you like our site?: Yes, it was very interesting.
Will you visit again?: I have bookmarked it and will return at a later date.
Will you recommend site to others?: Yes, just to show people there isn't a uniform opinion of any one group
Do you think we're evil?: Nah, you seem like a nice bunch of folks to me.

Hi there, I am an atheist and a liberal but not sure where I stand on the abortion issue. I know that I would never personally have an abortion (unless there were dire medical circumstances) and I do feel that it is wrong, but I don't advocate for it being outlawed again either. I liked your website. It's very thought provoking! Take care :o)

doug thornton - 03/17/99 03:40:41
My Email:
How did you find us?: infidels.com

I like to think that the tenets of the church can be accepted through reason, not thoughtless fidelity. Your existence supports that idea. thanks for being here.

Webmaster's Response:
While one can rationally support some religious moral teachings, much of religious dogma can be accepted only through "thoughtless fidelity." That's "blind faith" to the less educated.
--Matt Wallace, Founder/Webmaster

Lesley Dove - 03/12/99 22:03:32
My Email:
Location (City, State, etc.): Harrow, UK
How did you find us?: Followed links via Vegans for Life & PLAGAL
Do you like our site?: Yes.
Will you visit again?: Maybe.
Will you recommend site to others?: Maybe.
Do you think we're evil?: No.

I am a pro-life vegan and somewhat confused by the webmaster's attitude to animals. Both the unborn and animals are unable to defend themselves, both are sentient beings totally at the mercy of others. What is more animals are MORE aware than foetuses. Meat is murder because it is unnecessary killing, we don't need it. Kindly explain your inconsistency.

Webmaster's Response:
Sheez, a fella makes a few offhand comments in support of omnivorism and gets jumped on for "inconsistency."

As a mature adult male of the preeminent predatory species on the planet, I not only have no problem with eating the flesh of other species, but I require the protein such a diet readily and efficiently provides. The hunting of prey animals and/or slaughter of domestic animals is necessary killing to provide me food for my survival. Morally/ethically and biologically/ecologically, there is no difference between my eating a beef steak and a lion eating a wildebeest haunch.

Furthermore, murder is the deliberate unjustifiable killing of a human being by another human being. By definition, the killing of a member of one species by a member of another species can't possibly be "murder." Of course, this doesn't preclude or excuse human acts of criminal cruelty and abuse against other animals. Killing an animal simply to derive sadistic "pleasure" is not comparable to killing an animal for food, and killing an animal for food is not comparable to killing, whether justifiable or not, a human being. Though each case involves the killing of other creatures, clear moral/ethical consideratons distinguish each case from the others, so no "inconsistency" exists in both defending the lives and rights of innocent human beings regardless of their stage of development and deriving sustenance from the flesh of other animals.

I have no problem with your abandonment of the human dietary tradition of omnivorism which literally fueled our evolution. I fully support your right to adopt strict vegetarianism as a lifestyle choice. I appreciate the consistency of your position based on anticruelty, especially when contrasted with the inconsistency of "animal rights" advocates who obstinately defend non-human lives while condoning the slaughter of millions of innocent human beings through abortion. My comments to Mr. Beben's guestbook post were nothing more than an expression of my personal distaste for "vegan"/"animal rights" dogmatism; I apologize for any confusion they may have engendered.

Technically speaking, abortion isn't "murder" because Roe v. Wade legally defines a preborn human as something other than a "human being." We agree that this is unacceptable. I'm certain that we agree that, absent a legitimate threat to the mother's life, an abortion is the "unnecessary killing" of a human being. We're not here to discuss eating habits but to oppose abortion, so let's join together for the fight!
--Matt Wallace, Founder/Webmaster

Hallie - 03/06/99 05:49:37
My URL: http://www.angelfire.com/ky/GBroagfran
My Email: GBroagfran@aol.com
Location (City, State, etc.): KY
How did you find us?: Linked from "Progressive Pro-life links"
Do you like our site?: Yes
Will you visit again?: Yes
Will you recommend site to others?: Yes
Do you think we're evil?: No

I too am a pro-life deist, like that last signer. Funny how our society puts more money into feeding and "reforming" murderers than goes into feeding and housing starving Third World children, with so much "compassion" for thugs suffering from bad childhoods (CRY me a river) while totally forgetting about victims and their grieving families. These same people turn around and (in their great all-encompassing sympathy, no doubt) allow women to kill their unborn children in non-life or death situations. You know, I think somewhere they're beginning to enforce sobriety on pregnant women, so that their babies don't come out with defects. Sounds like a good deal...maybe someday they'll also enforce not killing the babe in utero. Not that you yourself need a reminder, but for others: Don't knuckle under to popular opinion. EVER. If you know in your heart that something is wrong, and the public denies it, then the public is blind. The liberals are not always right.

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